Curse

DarkNecrid · Jan 04, 2009, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Premise:
In case if the title isn't enough: an elite mission that is actually hard and ergo "elite".

Objectives in said suggestion:
*Reward skill, not time.
*Rewards teamwork
*A difficult but realistic elite area that is hard because of the enemies build, not because I decided to give them 60,000 Health
*Unfarmable

The Lore:
Somewhere in the depths of Tyria the Zaishen Order, a guild famous for knowing and sharing the way to the Hall of Heroes to all those who they deem worthy, lies in their underground temple. An ancient force from Tyria's past has affected parts of their vast Temple, and out of fear they have blocked off the lower sections. Now heroes, they call upon you to aid them, but be afraid, for whatever thing runs afoul in this temple, seems to have magic beyond the likes you've ever seen...

(ie: cliche villain makes cliche bad things happen and you the cliche hero must go do the cliche thing of saving people's butts. Go figure.)

The basics...:
This Elite Mission functions differently than the others in that when using a Scroll (which may be used in any place a passage scroll can be used) takes you to an outpost instead of the actual mission.

However, the scroll only works if you (and all other humans players in your party) have completed all 3 campaigns and Eye of the North in Normal Mode, otherwise it fails to function. Upon activation, the scroll removes all heroes and henchmen from your party.

This outpost is unique in that it is the only place in the game with a Skill Trainer that can teach you skills from any campaign & Eye of the North. Upon entering the outpost all people are afflicted by a "debuff" known as "Mysterious Curse".

The Rules of the Elite Mission:
The "Mysterious Curse" is a debuff that is constantly active even when in the Mission. It has the following effects:
*PvE-Only skills are locked and may not be used.
*Heroes may not be taken. (There is no henchmen in the outpost, so those don't fly either)
*All PvE split skills are now their PvP versions.
*All consumables fail to activate. (this includes beers, rice cake like items in town, tonics, festival items like the candy corn, birthday cupcakes, the Nightfall drake kabob stuff, EotN Consets, Scrolls of Rez, etc. They're all disabled.)

The Elite Mission's layout:
This elite mission is also technically a Dungeon, however unlike the EotN dungeons, this one does not have a defined layout, and it is not A to B progression. Instead this mission is 5floors (each takes about 20 minutes to beat, making this mission roughly a 1 hour and 40 minutes endeavor.) that are randomly chosen from a list of premade floor designs. Basically there is a lot of floor designs, all of which are not simply A to B, but have side rooms and such to explore, and they are randomly chosen, meaning each time you play the layout of the dungeon as a whole will be completely different.

The levels progress this way:
Level 1 = Old meta Prophecies builds, stuff like Boon Prot will be found here. Not very effective, decent players can beat easily.
Level 2 = Old meta Prophecies & Factions builds, stuff like AoD Shock, etc. Built to be a little bit toughter.
Level 3 = Old meta Prophecies & Factions & Nightfall builds. Harder still.
Level 4 = The above, but with slightly tougher & newer builds. This level also includes retired "Level 5" builds.
Level 5 = Current meta builds. (Also contains a final fight that is 1 random Guild Wars boss with better grouped "meta" enemies to support them.)

Each "build" may use old versions of certain skills where neccessary to make them work, and in the case of current meta builds, special versions of these skills are made so that even if Skill Updates change them, none of the builds will break in the future. If you "grab" these skills, you get the current PvP legal version, not the version they use.

The Elite Mission's Foes:
On top of this, each "room" like section has an encounter with some monsters. These monsters are "Possessed Zaishen [Class]", which are level 20 foes that have level 20 health and energy stats, with energy regen similar to their actual class. These monster groups are randomly chosen based on the floor you are on, earlier floors have early meta builds, with later floors having current meta builds.

These monsters use AI rules specific to this elite area:
*They move out of AoE as soon as they possibly can.
*They try to kite whenever possible.
*They know how to weapon swap intelligently.

When an enemy group is encountered, a blueish aura will block your escape/progress from this group, forcing you to fight them. Some areas have flags which can provide teams temporary Morale Boosts (which go away after you win), or do AoE damage to the team that doesn't have the flag, or environmental effects like spiked coral (PvP legal environmental effects, not the random PvE ones.), etc.

Since these rooms are randomly chosen and the enemy groups randomly picked, this means sometimes you or the enemy will have advantages/disadvantages. A good example is a room that might have a lot of rocky pillars and the enemy team is a ranger spike, they are at a severe disadvantage if the players play tactfully and use the pillars to block their arrows, but maybe another team will get the same enemy group but in a wide open spot, meaning they'll need to work harder together to win.

These enemy groups are usually well balanced, and since they use real player energy mechanics this suddenly changes how players should approach their team. Enemy teams will usually have answers to everything, which prevents solo or even team farming. Player teams need to take enchantment removal, and skills like [Diversion] and energy denial become more important making Mesmers very very useful. All these opponents use typical PvP gear, and thus have typical PvP health & energy values. This means player teams have to be balanced too, or else they will fail.

Here's some examples of just some of the types of enemy groups you'll encounter:
Level 1:
[Backbreaker][Crushing Blow][Irresistible Blow][Gale][Healing Signet][Frenzy][Sprint][Resurrection Signet]
["Charge!"][Sever Artery][Gash][Final Thrust][Healing Signet][Frenzy][Gale][Resurrection Signet]
[Crippling Shot][Apply Poison][Distracting Shot][Storm Chaser][Troll Unguent][Blackout][Distortion][Resurrection Signet]
[Crippling Shot][Apply Poison][Distracting Shot][Storm Chaser][Troll Unguent][Blackout][Distortion][Resurrection Signet]
[Migraine][Conjure Phantasm][Spirit of Failure][Power Drain][Drain Enchantment][Mantra of Persistence][Distortion][Resurrection Signet]
[Offering of Blood][Enfeeble][Faintheartedness][Life Siphon][Malaise][Parasitic Bond][Distortion][Resurrection Signet]
[Offering of Blood][Mend Ailment][Reversal of Fortune][Purge Conditions][Holy Veil][Divine Intervention][Guardian][Divine Boon]
[Offering of Blood][Mend Ailment][Reversal of Fortune][Dwayna's Kiss][Protective Spirit][Divine Intervention][Guardian][Divine Boon]
Notes:
-The Last Pride vs War Machine, Game 2 GWWC Finals, this was EvIL's build.
-Uses old versions of skills like Offering of Blood, Backbreaker, and Distortion.

Level 5:
[Dismember][Body Blow][Distracting Strike][Bull's Strike][Shock][Primal Rage][Rush][Resurrection Signet]
[Devastating Hammer][Crushing Blow][Hammer Bash][Bull's Strike][Flail][Distracting Strike][Enraging Charge][Death Pact Signet]
[Melandru's Shot][Distracting Shot][Savage Shot][Apply Poison][Natural Stride][Mending Touch][Hunter's Shot][Resurrection Signet]
[Power Block][Diversion][Cry of Frustration][Shame][Shatter Enchantment][Inspired Enchantment][Power Drain][Resurrection Signet]
[Lingering Curse][Suffering][Faintheartedness][Enfeeble][Signet of Humility][Waste Not, Want Not][Inspired Hex][Resurrection Signet]
[Patient Spirit][Infuse Health][Word of Healing][Draw Conditions][Protective Spirit][Guardian][Holy Veil][Disciplined Stance]
[Gift of Health][Guardian][Life Sheath][Glyph of Lesser Energy][Spirit Bond][Holy Veil][Aura of Stability][Aegis]
[Mark of Insecurity][Weapon of Shadow][Weapon of Warding][Wielder's Boon][Soothing Memories][Protective was Kaolai][Recuperation][Dash]

The Rewards:
Every room has a random chance to spawn a locked chest that requires a "Temple Key" that can only be bought in the outpost.

At the end of each level (which I remind you, take ~20 minutes to beat assuming you don't go into side rooms/secret passages) a Temple Chest will spawn, which gives every player of the party the following:
*X Temple Tokens where X = the level you just beat (ie: Level 1 gives you 1 Temple Token, this means players will get 15 Temple Tokens per full clear, not including rare drops from the possessed Zaishen.) (Temple Tokens are untradeable)
*Rare weapon skins have a chance to drop, much like the Zaishen chest.
*Additional rare new skins may drop (similar rarity as the MPB, this is to give new rare stuff to the economy)
*A 5th Level Temple Chest drops 1 Temple Shard (also untradeable)

Additional level Temple Chests may drop gems, etc.

At the very end of the 5th level and in the outpost there is a Rewards guy who can turn your Temple Tokens AND Temple Shards for various rewards:
-Rare "Zaishen Temple" prestige armor for each class (also requires money)
-Rare "Zaishen Temple" weapons.
-Special minipets only gottenable here
-Summoning Stones (that uses various builds found within)
-Various tonics (Shiro tonic anyone?)
-Temporary 1 hour item effects to make you stand out, such as a fiery effect for armor, or black angelic wings (similar to Para wings).

Some items cost money, some cost Temple Tokens, some cost Temple Tokens & Shards, some cost all 3, just depends. These are in fact a grind, however I think this grind is not bad considering the elite mission is a) hard, b) requires humans only, c) the items can't be traded and therefore bought, d) the elite is randomly generated making it more replayable. However, the costs for these items would be small, 1 full run could get you ~3-5 of the lower tier items (Less wanted tonic/sum stone).

Upon completion or failure of this mission, you are sent back to where you used your scroll, and must use another to get to the outpost.

So in summary, an elite area that goes through the "history of PvP" and uses groups of enemies that use builds that actually work together, act smartly, and require teamwork to get past.

What do you think?

Hyru Jin · Jan 04, 2009, 07:20 PM // 19:20

err... you're describing a new game? I don't know but it seems impossible to let NPC AL run those builds like a real player could. This would be loads of work and, as ANet is working on GW2 and tries to keep us happy with new heroes and 2 hours during quests, this will be a little too much.

Blaster Slasher · Jan 04, 2009, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Wow. I like it. Although I'm not sure about having all of that extra stuff at the end. And maybe have the ability to stay in the outpost/return there once you beat the mission.

BoondockSaint · Jan 04, 2009, 07:24 PM // 19:24

I can see that you put alot of thought into it and think it was well written. It is way to much work to be implemented in GW1 despite being a cool idea.

Also I think that even with a very good AI decent teams would not have a problem simply because it you bring the AI down to our level human teams will have every advantage, (except intrupting!)

Anyways nice write up and maybe something like this could exist in some form in GW2, if that still exists, j/k.

DarkNecrid · Jan 04, 2009, 07:28 PM // 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyru Jin

err... you're describing a new game? I don't know but it seems impossible to let NPC AL run those builds like a real player could. This would be loads of work and, as ANet is working on GW2 and tries to keep us happy with new heroes and 2 hours during quests, this will be a little too much.

Actually the AI that we have now could run these builds pretty easily because of how the AI actually works (series of checks), the only hard part would be making them weapon swap and flag run and minute things like Gale chaining (which they might be able to do actually, since they can Quarter Knock.).

Even if they run bad builds, the Zaishen AI in the Isle of the Nameless shows that they can run these types of things. Obviously the AI can't split, that's why all the "rooms" are closed in spherical/square rooms where splitting isn't really needed. Obviously they wouldn't be able to perform them AS well as real players (although in some cases they could, ie: interrupts.), but the point is that the encounters are difficult and TEAMS, that require a challenge to overcome. This idea itself won't ever happen because let's face it: ArenaNet doesn't have the resources, but like other suggestions here it is more or less "if they did, I'd suggest they do this', and that is what you should judge this on, is if ArenaNet had the resources to make this the way I specified, would you like to see it?

kostolomac · Jan 04, 2009, 07:30 PM // 19:30

/notsigned , if you want pvp, do some pvp.

Fril Estelin · Jan 04, 2009, 07:37 PM // 19:37

I'd love to try it anytime I can! Are you looking for a job at Anet? (you'd deserve one anyway :P ) GJ dark.

Skyy High · Jan 04, 2009, 07:38 PM // 19:38

I like it, but I don't see it happening in GW1. =/

DarkNecrid · Jan 04, 2009, 07:40 PM // 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

/notsigned , if you want pvp, do some pvp.

How can you argue against all the overpowered crap in PvE and yet seem to think that if you took all that away these types of builds would not be the PvE meta? Outside of tank and spank ran by silly PuGs who think Paras suck now anyways, these same builds that you see in the Level 5 section would pretty much be ran, with minor variants, especially if the AI actually had good builds. This isn't about "it being PvP" this is about "running good builds" which is what would happen if a) the AI had good builds and b) all the overpowered crap was taken away.

There would be differences here and there, ie: [Eviscerate] is a weaker choice in PvE (although it'd be good here because the reasons Eviscerate sucks in normal PvE aren't here.) and [Primal Rage] is a lot more dangerous in HM (not as dangerous here), but essentially this is what it would be like. Back in OG Prophecies good people who grouped up for FoW/UW ran neigh similar builds to the "balanced" PvP meta in top end PvE back then barring a few changes here or there and so on (obviously not exact copies because that would be silly) to counter whats in there. No one does that anymore because of PvE skills, PvE split skills, exploitation of bad AI, and consets. They build around gimmicks and abuse all the above to win fast.

On top of this, it actually connects back to the original game design of PvE leading to PvP (see: desert missions) that ArenaNet intended. I really wish you could put more effort into your post instead of giving me one that isn't very specific or well explained, that doesn't help anybody.

EDIT:
Thanks for the comments though, everyone!

Zodiac Meteor · Jan 04, 2009, 07:56 PM // 19:56

I had a similar idea.
/signed
I would not have the 4 campaigns req. though.
The weapons/armor should req. Onyx and diamonds. Give us a reason to keep them.
At the end there should also be Zanshin PvE skills trainer. Also add points to Zanshin title track after each level.
Add monster skills to the NPC's.

zwei2stein · Jan 04, 2009, 08:01 PM // 20:01

I like your idea in general, but your builds in practice have fatal flaw.

You are making AI with player-equivalent abilities to use PvP builds. I fear that it will get mercilessly slaghtered.

I would do away with moral boosts to make AI able to win by atrition and put there at least some stuff to cope with PvE madness or even design teambuilds with PvE gimmick in mind.

I would, for example make one team this:

6x P/Me with Signet of Disenchant and Hebreaker and some staying power
1x R/Me for tranquility and infuriating heat.
1x Rt/Me with token Hexbreaker some restoration.

Obviously, this is "No Cryways, mon!" team.

MisterT69 · Jan 04, 2009, 08:44 PM // 20:44

I like it, but at best we would only see something like this in GW2. This is way too complex at the moment for the programmers at GW1 to create but if this were thrown in GW2, I wouldn't mind taking a stab at it.
/signed

Ratson Itamar · Jan 04, 2009, 08:57 PM // 20:57

So Basically you want a PvP(more specifically a GvG) Elite Area.
/notsigned

Gwmaster · Jan 04, 2009, 09:14 PM // 21:14

/signed
we need more new stuff to the game!

own age myname · Jan 04, 2009, 09:18 PM // 21:18

Awesome idea. Don't see it happening though

/signed anyways

GWEXTREEMFAN · Jan 04, 2009, 09:18 PM // 21:18

/notsigned

no matter how elite you want to make it there always will be people who find a way to exploit it

MrGuildBoi · Jan 04, 2009, 09:32 PM // 21:32

/signed but, do you think Anet can actually make AI do that? Look at our heroes now xD

KoKoS · Jan 04, 2009, 09:45 PM // 21:45

I like it, but all those "disable everything that has to do with PvE" is a bit to0 much =]..
*also like the unfarmable part to0 xD*
AND i don't see it happening either =/

Kerwyn Nasilan · Jan 04, 2009, 09:59 PM // 21:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

I like your idea in general, but your builds in practice have fatal flaw.

You are making AI with player-equivalent abilities to use PvP builds. I fear that it will get mercilessly slaghtered.

I would do away with moral boosts to make AI able to win by atrition and put there at least some stuff to cope with PvE madness or even design teambuilds with PvE gimmick in mind.

I would, for example make one team this:

6x P/Me with Signet of Disenchant and Hebreaker and some staying power
1x R/Me for tranquility and infuriating heat.
1x Rt/Me with token Hexbreaker some restoration.

Obviously, this is "No Cryways, mon!" team.

PvE Skills are disallowed.

unkleanone · Jan 04, 2009, 10:02 PM // 22:02

I have to say I don't like the idea. The dungeon itself would be fun but there is no point in using pvp skills you think using pvp skills would make it harder to find a weakness/gimick/exploit. Your probably right but fact of the matter is Those builds will be set in stone thus eventually we will find a way to easily or atleast more easily destroy the entire dungeon in the shortest amount of time possible. It's simply the way skill based games work.